Queer Doc (they/them): Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Queercme vodcast. I am super excited to welcome some representatives from Ncsf, which is the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom? I got that right, yes, I'm dealing with a lot of acronyms in my life right now. And so I would love if y'all would like to introduce yourselves.
Susan Wright: Great. Yes, I am Susan Wright. I am the executive director of the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, and the National Coalition is a advocacy group for the king and consensual nominogamy communities.
Queer Doc (they/them): Susan, would you share your pronouns and how you identify as well?
Susan Wright: And I am a cisgender bisexual kinky and consensually non-monogamous person.
Queer Doc (they/them): Damien.
Damien NCSF: Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think how do I identify? I gotta like, think put the adjectives together and to try to be succinct. So I'm Damien my pronouns. Are he him? I am on the board of the Ncsf, as well as a few other nonprofits. I am black trans polyamorous queer kinky leather.
Damien NCSF: Period. Yeah, I think that I think that covers my adjectives. Yeah, I I guess I'm really excited to be here and I think when I think about the Ncsf it has a very long history. We just had our 25 year anniversary. I think it was last year the the pandemic kind of messed with time for me but I think of what we do now and the the fight, the battle, the struggle, whatever you want to describe it never ends, right? So we've just had different battles. I guess the Ncsf has been fighting for just about my whole life and I like to try to bring that message to folks in the TNG community because as under 35, that's the next generation.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. Yeah.
Damien NCSF: So I'm 32 so I in
Queer Doc (they/them): I ate, I ate out of that when I turned 40 on Friday, so,
Damien NCSF: Well, congratulations. Happy. Belated birthday. Yeah. Still,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Thank you. Yeah.
Damien NCSF: you know, squarely in the early 30s, I try to bring some of these messages to folks and in my age range,
Queer Doc (they/them): Love it. Um, yeah. And like very specifically, how does the work that Ncsf does like kind of, you know, because our my primary focus is trans healthcare and so I would love to talk about the intersection of Ncsf and like Trans healthcare trans community, you know, advocacy and all that kind of stuff.
Damien NCSF: So, from when I think about healthcare sexual health, I also have to think of mental health, too, because we know mental health does impact your sexual health, right? And your sexual wellness. So, to me, I think about the work that the Ncsf has done to decriminalize and destigmatize, a lot of the type of of sexual minority activities, right? So from a mental health and wellness point of view, having the the Destigmatics destigmatization of these activities that they're out of the DSM, they're common common language. They're, they're a conversation. You can now have with your healthcare provider about the things that you know, folks would only do in the bedroom. Otherwise, so the deep criminalization and, you know, destigmatization and…
Queer Doc (they/them): If? Yeah,…
Damien NCSF: consent policy. Just benefits our mental health as trans folks, and I think that's a direct connection to to our sexual wellness.
Damien NCSF: That's that's my personal. That's my personal take on it.
Queer Doc (they/them): Susan, do you want to share you? That's about that before. I peppery all with question.
Susan Wright: Planet one out. Door. Yeah, you know, it's It's definitely true that. We try to assist in the health and wellness of our constituents. And part of that is by educating providers about language to use with their clients that are kinky or conceptually nominogamous. A lot of people keep themselves closeted. So you need to sometimes draw that out and we know from prevalent surveys that, you know, at least 30% of adults in America, engaging in some kind of spanking or roleplay or bondage. So it's really important. Healthcare providers. Be able to talk to their clients about this.
Susan Wright: So we can provide education, like, cultural competency as well as education about consent as Damien was talking about as well. And then we also have our kink and polyamory aware professionals database, and that is where providers can list themselves for free as willing and able kink friendly. Polyamory friendly to serve our constituents and that gets that's our most traffic place. We got 34,000 searches of that database last year. So it's a great place to be able to reach this underserved population and be able to offer much needed services.
00:05:00
Damien NCSF: And I think on that a sorry about that on the,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. Oh sorry.
Damien NCSF: the database as well and granite, it is only, you know, specifically around King and Polyaware. That's just removing one barrier, right? Because keeping intersectionality in mind, the least barriers and hurdles you have to cross with your healthcare provider, right? The better I think healthcare you can receive because you're able to be your full self, right? And, and we know that as humans were dynamic and we want to try to bring our full selves to any kind of health and wellness environment.
Queer Doc (they/them): And as someone who very personally, has not felt safe in the room. So my healthcare providers and like, you know, at this point, it's your fault. I'm like, because you did a bad job of creating a welcoming and safe environment. So. Um, but yeah, for the cat for the kink and poliwear, professional listing, are there any specific training or requirements to be listed there? Like any kind of thing that clinicians should do before they reach out to you there?
Susan Wright: Well, we don't vet the people that are on this list but we definitely have different categories.
Queer Doc (they/them): You.
Susan Wright: So if you're a licensed professional, we want you to list yourself in that category. And we are now working on gathering. Programs. We have a new category in our cap where people who provide continuing education webinars can list themselves offering a kink and polyamory education for continuing education credits. So we've done. Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): Should update my listing than apparently.
Susan Wright: And he had no actually create a whole new listing and put it under that category. And it's because then we're going to be driving professionals to that because we get asked that, you know, we do offer workshops in conjunction with other groups, like Toshra and Asek that are provided continue to education credits but it's not something that we we do ourselves. So we really want to be able to highlight where this great education is happening so people can go and get it.
Queer Doc (they/them): Nice. So, if since people are self attesting for cop, what do you like, kind of think of as baseline requirements like that, you would want to see if you were vetting. People like what are your kind of before you self attest? I suggest you have X y and Z.
Susan Wright: Yeah, you know, that's a great question. We're actually getting ready to launch a king can polyamory where professionals survey to get that information from professionals. Who are serving our communities like what's needed right now in your specific field. So we're going to have much more specific guidelines for that. There are the Kinka wear guidelines, clinician guidelines for mental health professionals. That people can. Look at that, we have links to. We have actually for guidelines that we put out on with the Committee on Conceptual. Nominogamy the Division 44 APA Committee and so those guidelines have the basic information of like as long as you are welcoming to people of diverse relationship and sexual practices. As long as you're not exclusionary, like we like you to change your form, so it doesn't just say, Husband wife, you know? Like we we like the the language to be
Susan Wright: Gendered a large portion of people who are in the organized communities, who practice, kink or consensual nominogamy are Lgbtqia. So, there's a basic fundamental understanding of sexual orientation that we like to see. And, of course, if somebody's reported to us, that, that they're not, Sensitive. To our constituents. That's something. We take into account, whether they need to be able to be there. We'll reach out, offer to provide some education. We're glad to do that for anybody. For free, professional practices individuals, we just want to make sure that the cultural competency is there
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. Damien, what are you looking for? Personally like when you're going to a clinician, what are you like you made the cut or…
Damien NCSF: Right. Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): you didn't.
Damien NCSF: Um, I think it probably comes down to a sense of openness and lack of judgment and to kind of get not, I guess, kind of heavy. It's also looking at their value system, right? Like, if they seem uncomfortable using the language that I prefer for my body parts and they will refuse to use my preferred language that will turn me away,…
00:10:00
Susan Wright: If?
Damien NCSF: right? Also if they have, you know, probably I'll say old fashioned or outdated approaches on what sexuality is, right? Like we know now that penetration is not the only type of sexuality so I would consider…
Queer Doc (they/them): Now.
Damien NCSF: what type of questions are you asking your clients,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Most most clinicians,…
Damien NCSF: right? Oh okay.
Queer Doc (they/them): still don't know that in my experience.
Susan Wright: If?
Damien NCSF: So I'm I'm located in Washington State, I don't know the
Queer Doc (they/them): At. I am too. And, and…
Damien NCSF: yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): this is like, my I am. I'm all. Like I share a lot of the same identifiers. Right? I'm, I'm queer. I'm not sis. I'm like Polly. I'm kinky and, and I love my primary care providers. And none of my care team members, like understand my sexual orientation, my sexual identity. And, you know, I've never been correctly asked questions about how I have sex with people who I have sex with. You know, part of the problem is, I'm a physician. So like I give them a break and I just say like this is the testing I need, okay?
Damien NCSF: Yeah, I I think in Seattle, there is a queer specific healthcare center.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: I'm gonna do a shout out to Capitol Medical because their staff is very aware,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: right? They're all so very Polyaware. So, I know that I have multiple, primary partners, primary partners, um, and they're all listed. So my like, my, my primary care physician knows, that I have multiple partners of multiple genders and also understands that I have multiple partners, you know, even outside of this primary relationship. But that's something that's very specific to my healthcare. My personal healthcare practitioner so that I think is I feel very lucky in that that they're all, so, you know, trans aware probably aware and take aware, right? So I I can talk to them about any type of activities that I'm doing that, you know, just to get information or advice. So I guess that's a high bar,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: right? That's my personal bar.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. I know Jessica and…
Damien NCSF: Yeah. Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): Simon well. So I know you're queer team well and they are fabulous humans.
Damien NCSF: I think that's very different than what the Kap list is for,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: right. So I think as someone who would be seeking care, my personal bar is very high, but when it comes to someone who is looking to be on that list, it's really like consider partners, instead of husband or wife or someone says it's multiple partners. Don't immediately jump to something's not,…
Susan Wright: Here.
Damien NCSF: okay, or something's non-consensual happening, right? Because if someone has multiple partners within polyamorous relationships and that consensual non-monogamy communities that suggest every day, right? So we do like to be able to talk about our partners with our our healthcare physicians. So I think that's probably the biggest the biggest thing to getting on that list in my with my two cents.
Susan Wright: Here. Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. I'll give my two cents and and I would say for clinicians like If y'all don't have lived experience as poly and kinky which one lived experience, like Let's be very clear. It lived experience has like a high value and it's really important. And also and lived experience doesn't also mean you have like training in your career to work with people either. So I think as like a I don't like the word professional as a like working medical person. Like I think we we should actually have both but very much so if you don't have the lived experience, you absolutely. I think you need to do some CE before you list yourself as kink and Polly, where like it does not count that you read fifty shades of gray, it doesn't count that you saw the movie and I'm just gonna call that out right now.
Susan Wright: You.
Queer Doc (they/them): It doesn't count that you're like, Oh, I'm okay with all people, that's fine because you might be okay with all people, but you still suck at talking to us about it. And so, And you know if you want to list yourself there I think like awesome. Because it like, it is an underserved population. People need more resources and access but please do at least at a bare minimum,…
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): you know, an hour of CE and like, King 101 and an hour of CE and poly 101. I think as a bare minimum and to get on that list. So you, you do have some exposure to the terminology and language, right? One of my big pushes and trans healthcare, right? And like the bar is still low, we're just like really excited of people like get our name and our pronouns, right? Which like has yet to happens to me, and most of my healthcare with them like bars so low. It's like as long as you're nice meal, actually, teach you how to take care of me.
Damien NCSF: Please my pronouns. That's it, that's it.
Susan Wright: It.
Queer Doc (they/them): And like one of my big pushes is and, you know, I don't ask my patients to teach me how to take care of them from like the medical education standpoint for any other health condition. And so that should be true of trans healthcare, that should be true of King Healthcare that should be true of poly healthcare, it's perfectly, okay? As a clinician for me to ask you how to take care of you based on your values and your goals, right? Like you are the expert in you.
00:15:00
Damien NCSF: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): And so it's really important for me to actually center that and listen to that but I should be the expert in the medical part of things. And so if a patient comes to me like right with diabetes and they're like, I saw this drug on TV and I totally want to take it. I'm like I don't even know how to say it. Um you know I don't say. Um well what do you think about it? What have you read about it? What do you want to do? I say, Give me a few weeks. I'm going to learn about this. I'm going to talk to some specialists and then we'll have a we'll have another visit and I'll go over what I've learned with you and and we can make decisions based off that. Right? And I think that's like what my push always is with. Like, all these other things, right? We should do the same thing with trans healthcare. We should do the same thing with kink healthcare. We should do the same thing with poly healthcare. We should not rely on our patients. Fear educators, we paid a s*** ton of money to go to medical school.
Queer Doc (they/them): Like we know how to look things up. We know how to call specialists. Like Let's let's exercise. All of those things. I feel like Susan's face is like, I can't believe you're talking to doctors like this. I might get your f****** s*** together. I'm over it. So and
Susan Wright: No, it's it's so important because I mean, we'd I mean, we hear the horror stories of people coming to us and saying, what, what their doctors said to them, you know? And it's it's It that's what keeps people closeted. That's what keeps the stigma alive and that affects us on so many other levels. It's not just the individual that's being harmed, there's an entire community that's being harmed when that happens. And so, yeah, I mean, I was talking to Damien, you know, they're There are a lot of people that need to self-advocate. Right? And it's very hard to do that when you're trying to self-advocate about something like kink or polyamory, that has a stigma involved in it because you have to I mean you're in the position…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Susan Wright: where you're having to get past societal stigma on your own, To be able to talk in this. Very confidential way about somebody that needs this information.
Susan Wright: Yeah, it's it's a difficult situation.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah, and I do think they're Susan actually mentioned. A lot of the great resources for training for those. Like, if you haven't done that King 101 or that, probably 101, and you don't have any Lived experience Tarsha and Asect and are both organizations that are fabulous. And again, help me with the acronyms as I get them wrong and Asac is like Americans sex.
Susan Wright: The American Association of Sexuality, Educators Counselors and Therapists. They always have some kind of King polyamory training at their conferences and…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yes. Wow.
Susan Wright: then if you get on,
Susan Wright: It, you know their list they're constantly putting out different providers are talking about the different workshops that they have. It's actually much more accessible than it used to be.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. Yeah and so Asac does like a major conference I think that they have some on-demand stuff too. Right. I want to say at their website for like a CE and and then tashara is it's I don't think it's actually an acronym, right? It's just the organization.
Susan Wright: Oh no,…
Susan Wright: it is. Yeah, it's the sexual compliance.
Queer Doc (they/them): Okay. Okay.
Queer Doc (they/them): And so they also do training education as well and have resources for healthcareers. Healthcare providers and clinicians on their website. and so both are like really great and then
Queer Doc (they/them): The other one I always forget about is like the Institute for Sexual Medicine or something. MMM, Do you know what I'm talking about now? It's okay.
Susan Wright: You know, there's so many now that are actually providing this. It, you know, if you went back to Stephen four years, you wouldn't find the same availability and, you know, Asech does list a lot of people that carry their CES, so you can actually find the list of providers who are doing that. Um, but Ncsf wanted it to be readily available to our professionals. That's why we created our new listing for it.
Queer Doc (they/them): Thanks. Love that. I love that. And are y'all seeing an A sector? car shows or anyone's training, like really good, tackling of some of the intersectional stuff like we're gonna start talking about, you know, because I feel like I have like, I have some cake educators who were looking to work with like they have a big goal of diversifying king education and…
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): and we're like it is diversified you're just not invited to those trainings rate and so historically a lot of the kink educators have been like Hat presenting cis presenting white men and you know, and in our community and Like in circles I moved in. There's also been a lot of abuse from educators, right? And unfortunately and so, and I think
00:20:00
Queer Doc (they/them): Think when it's consensual and Polly when it's consensual are like healthy, great options for relationships relationship, satisfaction is shown to be as high as an heterosexual monogamous relationships. You know, in certain markers it's even found to be higher like right. There was one researching. I was looking at recently that was talking about how I'm particularly trans people are better at communicating about relationships than any other group. Yes. Right. I know. And I actually thought that someone my friends who is at kinky and kind of queer but like mostly petsis that like in my experience trans and crew, people are just like butter at communicating about consent and she was pretty offended. I was like, look.
Queer Doc (they/them): When you have to start off the conversation about like about sex and like you're worried that someone might kill you, if you do it wrong and you have to start that out from like the net as a young person like you just develop a different skill set talking about sex and cake and consent. Then if you don't have to do that, if you can kind of always assume your partners interested in you and the parts of the body that you have. And so not that people can't do a great job talking about consent and kink they totally can but there was actually some research that supported my opinions that was like yeah. but yeah,…
Susan Wright: It.
Queer Doc (they/them): so I think Any organizations doing like a particularly good job? Including like kink and can particularly king stuff for bigger bodies or king for other marginalized identities. Like bypak people. you know, I think Entrance Healthcare. We always see an overrepresentation of white people who access healthcare like, that is something we have seen, right? And part of that is because right, the more intersectional identity, you have, the more barriers you have to access, you know, I think we see that sometimes too in like, What I see centered and kink and Polly trainings. I will say
Susan Wright: Yeah, I have to agree that not only they're more barriers if you have intersectional identities but you face more discrimination just over discrimination. And we also do see just higher levels of reports of consent violations by people who are transgender non-binary. It's just it's much higher. So I I while I do think that the communicate it that speaks to the communication has to be there there, you know, for your own safety. So and of course, we know communication is the basis of consent. So that's one thing I do think that providers should kind of look into is You know, the consent standards within the organized communities with the ED, the educators, the volunteer educators, within our communities are trying to teach, because there's a whole lot more of that happening. Then there is professional education. And I suggest people.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Susan Wright: Go into. Providers. And Access this education and see what people are talking about. It's not like you're gonna walk in. I mean, most of the time it's, you know, we're sitting in shares looking at the front and a lecture is gonna happen, right? So it's it's not such a scary situation and…
Damien NCSF: I'm
Susan Wright: getting to know your community is You know, I would love to see less of that separation between us.
Damien NCSF: I was gonna say I make a mean kinky PowerPoint. Like I, let me tell you, when I present, I throw together a PowerPoint and it's all it can be all kinky stuff. But, um, yeah, I I would I would say. wait, I'm sorry, I I think What was the question?
Queer Doc (they/them): I know I've thrown out like 42 so just pick any of them…
Damien NCSF: But yeah. Okay.
Queer Doc (they/them): but really something like hot. Are you have you found any resources for education? That do a great job of intersectional representation in their education?
Damien NCSF: Okay. Um, I would, I would say when it comes to intersectional and Give me a second now I'm tongue tied.
Susan Wright: Sexual.
Damien NCSF: Now I'm gonna drink a sip of coffee since we're paused. Do you?
Queer Doc (they/them): Love it. I love it. I like you're in Washington State. You're drinking coffee. Like we're gonna be friends after that.
Damien NCSF: Right right. I'm like, Oh yeah, coffee it to a clock, that's fine. Um,
00:25:00
Queer Doc (they/them): Love it.
Damien NCSF: Okay, so when I think about what type of education is being offered it, I would definitely second. It's local it's look at conferences that are happening some small conferences that are regional conferences.
Susan Wright: It.
Damien NCSF: They're doing kink and poly education. They're doing classes about consent how to communicate with partners about negotiation about safe practices when it comes to kink, right? There's also a lot of classes around some of those specific intersectional topics like racism in the kink community, racism, polyamory and kink polyamory and kink right. How do you do? So ethically. So those conversations are happening and they're being taught by. I think a diverse group of presenters. I've been a conferences and seen presenters of all all genders, all body types, all identities, all sexualities. So it's, it's not happening at your big national education.
Damien NCSF: Conferences that are sanctioned by so-and-so society of so-and-so, because I'm, I don't know these things but I'm sure there's a billion of them, but when it comes to, I'm gonna talk about institutional racism and…
Susan Wright: If you.
Damien NCSF: visibility and sizes them and fat phobia. You're not looking at these different types of educators. They are invisible to the organizers of these things. So when you're in a smaller community, you are often reaching out to people, you know, people, you see, and you're pulling together more diverse group of educators versus. Big national or international organizations that are just looking for the loudest voice, that might have the most funding that might have the most ability to put themselves out there. And when you consider who can do that, it is very a very small subset of our society who actually has the resources to self promote and and really get yourself out there.
Queer Doc (they/them): Right and pay to travel to the location. Paid us stay there.
Susan Wright: Yep.
Queer Doc (they/them): Work unpaid, right? Because a lot of times when we present at conferences that's not compensated and like a lot of major barriers. And then also again, in my experience a lot of the teaching and more local. And marginalized communities is like way more, relational, relational. Like, It's not necessarily going to have a PowerPoint, it's not necessarily going to have like, your three learning objectives and your agenda. It's going to be like, really interactional and really interpersonal, and it's gonna have like, really high value because the people are gonna be learning the thing. They actually need to learn, not the thing that was on the slides, which may be they already knew,…
Damien NCSF: If you.
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): but like that And continuing medical education. That isn't something we've made space for you, right? And yeah.
Damien NCSF: and, I think I would I would add to that and say If you see the educate a lot of these conferences you can look at their educators and their courses online before you attend, right? And a lot of the educators put their material out there. So if you're like…
Susan Wright: It.
Damien NCSF: if going to a full conference a full kink conference is too much or a barrier right now. There's so much online one-off education by these same presenters you can attend and zoom have your camera off and just listen before you go into that physical space, right? So there's small steps you can take before you dive straight into a King Prince for your, for your first time. Yeah, right. You can definitely start small.
Queer Doc (they/them): Right. And I think Susan and Damien's point about reaching out to like local educators and your own personal community is really phenomenal. Like we've listeners from all over the country and one like you will learn more about your community. You also have a resources to send your patients to that as local and which is really important into like a lot of these like local. Like usually I find these people out, like, the local feminist sex shop, right? Whether it's toys and badland, or smitten or she bop or whichever one. It is in your State Area Right there. There's typically going to also be sex,…
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): educators working out of there offering like local courses like on Thursday evenings, you know, and have a cookie and let's talk about dildos and like And so, I think that is an amazing way to get it, might not be CE certified education, but more exposure to this community, more exposure to this population, more exposure to the language without necessarily having to,…
Susan Wright: If you.
Queer Doc (they/them): like, Ask your patients to explain it to you, right? And I do think it's always Okay, like, words are really individually defined and, and define differently across different communities. And I do think it's okay to ask a patient. Like What does that mean to you and get that information. But I don't think you need to ask them to explain the greater context, like, you can go look that up on the googles. and so, Right. I think You know, because 17 Different poly, people will define poly 17 different ways and…
00:30:00
Susan Wright: Very true.
Queer Doc (they/them): then the next we'll find it like 14 Different way like, you know, will change like next week, we actually changed my mind. So
Susan Wright: I know I was wondering if I should like define King Cap polyamory, Because it's like, you know, conceptual nomenography because it's just it's definitely true. If somebody says I have, you know, certain lovers, whatever. It's like our I am this and they just give an identity label. I think it's always Always okay to say okay…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Wright: what does that mean to you? So that you can understand? Better and be able to be able to meet them where they're at. Instead of You know, the classic, some, somebody finds out a health provider finds out, that that you're polyamorous that you, you do have multiple lovers. That the next thing is going to be
Susan Wright: STI testing and often judgment that comes with that. Um, which is just not…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Susan Wright: what you want from a provider.
Queer Doc (they/them): My favorite story, I was at a dermatologist office for like a completely cosmetic thing like nothing to do with my sexual health whatsoever and it was the procedure and it was a painful procedure and I was on the table like with my pants off and, you know, ready to be jabbed with a bunch of needles and she was like, I heard you mentioned partners, how does that work? It was just like, I just looked at her and I said, How do your relationships work? Because I was like,…
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): I cannot get like You're you're hurting me right now. You are actually physically causing me pain and you're gonna ask me like inappropriate questions about my personal life. You and her response was Actually she was like you That's a valid point. Like Actually my relationships don't work. So maybe I should figure that out before. I'm bothering you. And I was like, well I I was like I found a little bit catty because I'm trying probably trying to challenge like how you approach this. But also I think the question is valid because I think all relationships kind of work or don't work for
Queer Doc (they/them): Same reasons, right? And it's probably because like you have shared values and you have honest, open communication and you have like some shared goals, right? And like, and then for me, the other like key component is kindness.
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): And, and for me that's how my relationship work works like, no matter how many of them there are. I just think I think that's probably true for a lot of people as well and if it isn't true for you, I actually feel really bad for you and like that sucks.
Damien NCSF: Now the story that you mentioned I think it's a good one because probably to that person. What felt like an a knock like you know a small talk question. It's like it does, it's not small talk if you're if it happens every single time everywhere you go with every single provider, Right, if you happen to have a week of of medical appointments and…
Queer Doc (they/them): Right.
Damien NCSF: you see ten ten doctors in one week, and every doctor thinks they're just making small talk, but you have to explain your partners your relationship for things that don't pertain to the appointment. I'm like, There is Google. Right. Small talk can be.
Queer Doc (they/them): Well. Yeah,…
Damien NCSF: How's work? You have…
Queer Doc (they/them): or small.
Damien NCSF: how are your partners like you don't ask…
Queer Doc (they/them): Right. Yeah,…
Damien NCSF: how it works, right?
Queer Doc (they/them): so I'll talk is not How do your relationship work. Small talk is like, What are How are y'all celebrating this weekend? What are your plans for this weekend with your partners? You know, like that. Are you thinking, Are you making some cookies? That is small talk?
Damien NCSF: Exactly.
Damien NCSF: Exactly, exactly.
Damien NCSF: Yeah. Invasive, you know what feels like a?
Susan Wright: It.
Damien NCSF: I think for specifically for for trans folks, medical environments are already invasive because of all of the
Damien NCSF: Hurdles, mistreatment miscommunication,…
Susan Wright: but,
Damien NCSF: and misunderstanding. We get on a regular basis, that's just a baseline. That's like, even if someone is, is straight heteronormative prayer, even the trans thing is still an obstacle. So if you start adding in intersectionality and more and more identities, it's like, any any moment, it feels like a battlefield, right? So you don't want to necessarily have to go in defending your your partners. You don't want to defend your polyamory, you don't want to have to defend your kinks, right? So you're really just trying to get taken care of and not having to defend. And I think that causes a lot of folks to not get care…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: because of that hesitation,…
Queer Doc (they/them): You.
Damien NCSF: I think there is a stigma around kink, so then maybe perfectly consent accidents happen.
Susan Wright: Here.
Damien NCSF: I think in any type of sexual environment accidents can happen, but you might not go seek the medical care in case you hurt your arm for
Damien NCSF: And you're like, Oh you should get your shoulder checked out but because you were doing a kinky activity, you might not go get taken care of and that can just lead to more and more medical issues. Long term,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Right.
Damien NCSF: I consider shoulder care, sexual health, because of kink, right? So shoulder care might not normally be normally be considered sexual health, but for me Sex is not just penetration,…
Susan Wright: It.
00:35:00
Damien NCSF: It's not just body parts in you know that we've already said that but it's like sexual health is all encompassing of more than just one kind of thing. So you might not think you're involved with sexual healthcare…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: but you might be right. It all depends on who you're patients, are
Queer Doc (they/them): Right. I think I'm it's it's such an important thing that you bring up, right? Because we know from the 2015, US Trans survey that one,…
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): in four trans people are going to delay seeking care because of fear of discrimination. And that doesn't even add in their intersectional identities, right. And You know, I I'm presenting actually leaders today, for an organization and some of the research I was looking at, you know, it's like one out of two people has like non-normative sexual designers. I think was like, the way they put it, right? I was like looking back. I was like, you know, when is our first like recorded
Queer Doc (they/them): Like incidents of kink, like when we look at like, When did King start in human history, you know and the answer is like, when humans started like kink started, like There is no, like, there's no recorded history, that doesn't have some component of like pink and eroticism in it, right? Like if you go like the like earliest recordings, go all the way back to Lake, Mesopotamia and so This has been part of the human sexual experience since humans have been humans. Having sex Um and for physicians, I don't know why it's so hard for us to talk about it. Like research shows that it really is. I definitely think my npnpa colleagues do a better job at this very often and…
Susan Wright: It.
Queer Doc (they/them): you know but I think so many of my ally colleagues who like don't have like queer and trans lived experience, like Do kind of get stuck on like How do we have sex? What are we doing? Like, what is happening? And then they don't actually know that how to ask the questions you need to ask about our sexual health, right? And I think one damien's point is huge, Sexual health is not just about STIs. It is not just about like, What infection you when I avoid catching or like Do screening for or anything like that, right? It is about a whole body holistic wellness. That like lets you engage fully with whatever, like sexual activities, you know, are interesting to you.
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): Rate, it can be about managing chronic disease. It's so you have enough energy or spoons to like Do the kink thing that you want to like, you know, Get into this weekend. Um You know, I'm like I have a Band-Aid because I I got a I got a new whip for my birthday and I threw it without taping because I was like all endorphined up for my party but this is like a random. I might cut that out of the video later but Random now, I'm losing my train of thought. Um, but yeah, I think really
Queer Doc (they/them): Sex isn't just about penetration is not in sexual health isn't just about STI. Prevention and so as clinicians it's so important that our questions are like, holistic and inclusive and right and so we don't want to ask, like, I always say when I'm talking to patients, like, You know, one is okay, If we talk about sex stuff, you know, like, Do you even want to go there with me, you know, and if they say yes, they say Great for the purposes of this part of the conversation, you know, sex is like anything more than kissing. It's like any pink wet. Part of a body touching any other pink wet part of a body. Like they don't have to go into them. They don't have to be actual generals like, it's just like the pink wet things. Like, that's what I need to know about because that's like how I start thinking about. STI, screening and how to make recommendations for you, right? and then like we get done with like kind of the STI portion of things and then it's like You know.
Queer Doc (they/them): How's like, How satisfying are, you finding like your sex life? Is there anything you feel like is missing, like, you know, are you able to like, Get off? Like, Are you able to get off in a way that like is satisfactory and feels good to you? Like Are you having any like pain or anxiety when you're really trying to have sexual activities with people? You know, and a big part of what I do. I work with a ton of trans Youth is talk about like how to come out, more safely to partners, right? Like because a lot of my older transformations, like, myself included like We're like You're only gonna dating app and you're just like this who I am. Like, if you are not okay with all these things, like Do not Damien me, I'm not interested. Um, but you know, younger kids, they are not on dating apps, you know, and they're meeting people like maybe in this court or online or in person and maybe like, some of them are really stealth. And I'm like, Okay. When are you like, How and when are you talking to people about like your trans status, right? Like because, please, I don't want it to be when you're in their
Queer Doc (they/them): Alone taking your clothes off, right? Because that is not a safe time to do it. And so, we definitely are talking about those kinds of things. And then I am, like, I do a lot of talking about how to, like, do anal prep like, you know, anal receptive practices, like our very common, particularly among trans patients. And a lot of the younger patients like Don't have a place. If they can go to get reliable education and I love scarlettine. I think they do a great job of doing stuff and then like we use some other online resources as well. And but these are all things. You can take an anal prep class from your local educators, like, Susan and Damien were talking about. You can also take a look at anal, fisting class and learn how that works. Dave, and your you gotta get on your mic.
00:40:00
Damien NCSF: I was gonna say, Yeah, there was just, there was just, a few fisting classes here in Seattle, for all types of holes, right? So I think again,…
Queer Doc (they/them): I love it.
Damien NCSF: when it, when it comes to what types of activities are considered, sex, Probably for someone who's interested in being able to better serve their patients. It's expanding your definition of what that is doesn't have to be for you. Just when you're in your practice, right? We're not trying to say, you have to change yourself, but it's about the people that you're serving,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah. Yeah.
Damien NCSF: right? So you want to come to where they are.
Queer Doc (they/them): And a little pun there but no, you know, and I always ask, like, Do you have any king practices, you want to talk to me about or do you have any key practices, You have questions or safety concerns about, um, you know? And I think, you know,…
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): I'm like openly kinky and poly on the Internet. So my patients like don't usually have a hard time talking about those ones with me, right? But like again, that intersectionality like continues to create access issues because, you know, the one thing I find patients like Are always the slowest to talk to me about is like plurality and right? And so it's like, they'll come out something about everything else. They're like, you know, trans and kinky and have like 14 partners and they all live in a like house together and everything's great. And they still haven't told me about their plurality, you know, 18 months later and then they tell me. And so every time we add that layer of intersectional identity, we just have more stigma and more barriers. And so, King and poly identities. Like the same thing happens and then when you layer that onto a trans identity, it just makes accessing care. So hard and Susan said it earlier.
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): Like I've never seen a form that actually fits me. Maybe Jessica's practice has them Damien and I should go look there. But like wait, I've never seen a form. Any of my doctor's offices where I'm like this is I'm like I'm trying to draw them like a Venn diagram and color code thing.
Damien NCSF: You. Yeah, I have never seen a a poly specific form. I've never seen. A kinks like specific area. But I have seen more and more like Male female other like it's basic other fill in the blank…
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: where it gives you an option to be within the spectrum. Like, I didn't like identifying that there's beyond the binary is almost step one to being accessible to trans folks because I identify as, like, a binary trans, man, like I use he him pronouns but not all trans people do, so, right? So you can't put us all in one box. So you're gonna, you're gonna have to expand the options that you give your your patience right on something, as simple as the form. Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): Right. And for like,…
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): medical providers. Like, I actually don't care very much about the gender of your partners. I care about their genitals, right? Because we're actually like, what we're trying to find out is like, stuff about STI risk transmission, right? And so, it doesn't really help me to know your partner's male because that doesn't tell me anything about what kind of genitals, they have and how y'all are using them together, which is what I need to know, to figure out where your STI risk is. And so, our paperwork actually just those like, What are your partners? Generals and we have, we have like Bioagina and Neo vagina biocock neo cock. I think they say penis, because they're medical paperwork but whatever, you know, because that's like, again, different risk factors with different kinds of genitals. And the gender part is like, Kind of irrelevant from that part of our care and…
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): that part of our work. Yeah.
Susan Wright: The one thing I did want to talk about to bring up his consent, I think that's something that a healthcare provider needs to know a little bit more about and…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yes.
Susan Wright: it can be kind of, they can be kind of confused when it involves erotic use of force or restraint because it's like, How do you judge is something's consensual. And that's a, you know, that's easy to get on ncsf's website. We have a ton of resources available, especially around consent phenomena and consent for kink. We have best practices. You know, we have simple like, you know, five point guidelines of like, did they talk about it before? They did it like, like specifically opt-in to what they were gonna do? Could they stop at any time? You know, that's a great question. Like you see a giant bruise on somebody say, Okay, great. You know, I just for consensual purposes, Could you stop at any time? Yes. I could right. Did you know what was going to happen? Yes, I did. Right. And, you know, and then
00:45:00
Susan Wright: Then you also want to because sometimes the healthcare providers do see, the more serious injuries and you know serious physical injury is really not allowed under kink, especially legally under explicit prior permission and that's like a permanent sort of injury. Like a permanent mark, a permanent impairment of a limb or organ or a risk of death. So I think that it might help healthcare providers to realize that we're operating in this area way below that. And so if they're seeing serious injuries, there might be an issue happening. Even if the person is saying it's consensual because as we know You know, there's all kinds of levels. I mean coercion is threat of harm or you know threat but then there's like, Influence undue influence. I mean, you even brought it up about, you know, providers and no organizers, maybe being sometimes problematic like people…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yes.
Susan Wright: who have more privileged within our communities.
Susan Wright: Have more ability to be able to take advantage of that. So I mean it would be lovely if healthcare providers. All kind of had a baseline understanding of what consent was.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: I think there are also a lot of kink red flags at the Ncsf has actually published on our social media. And I think if you looked at those, you would see that consent is a big one and speak, you know, speaking of in a medical setting, you know, if you're patient comes in with bruising, I know that we'll be startling, right, as a medical professional, but then that bruising could be from a really positive consensual great experience. Right? So, then, that, that bruising take care of the bruising, not you, it's not necessary to penalize that person, right? That's where a lot of the fear can come in and a lot of the stigma can come into play with, with kink. Not not saying that bruising. It happens every time, but with impact pay, and, you know, bodies are different. You you can get a bruise, um, you know, depending on the type of activity that you're doing. But you also want to make sure that if
Damien NCSF: Happens. You're getting the correct amount of care, and your provider needs to know that whatever happened was consensual, right? And that can be challenging.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: If the provider just doesn't believe you, right? If you are like this is, I, This is look at my classes that I've attended. This is the training that I've had to do this activity and still not being believed is probably one of the worst things that could happen in kink care. in my mind,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: I'm sure there's other there's worse things but that's really an immediate Will turn away. Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): Well, right, and you're you're much less likely to be believed. If you're black right, like hands down. We're starting right there and you're much. You're much more likely to lose your kids, right as well. And so there some of this bias stigma discrimination we're talking about does does actually lead to people losing their children and, and we're talking about this great area, right? We're talking about this, like, can cast to be consensual or it can be abuse and there can be people who maybe aren't necessarily like This like, Mmm. Like obvious abusers. They may just be like really like manipulative and those I have that red flags and I feel like I'll do the handout of those red flags or maybe it was the And what's the red umbrella for the sex workers? Maybe they did it. I have like a really good bed flags handout that I use. And, and so,
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah, I think you as a clinician you really do need to understand the difference between those two things and you really need to understand how to get that information from a patient like to figure out what this consensual was. This not consensual, but then yes, like if it is consensual and none of those drugs are coming up, we really need to trust our patients and their autonomy over their body and not evolve like child protective services just because we don't think it's a normative relational ship experience, right? And and I have like a huge bruise right now. Like, that birthday party. We will just tell this story for all of our listeners just so they can have a good time. I had I moved to Seattle in 2012 to go to residency and, like, I knew I was like kinky, but I didn't really like have language experience. Like, Do you know what I mean? Like, I know something was going on, but I didn't know what it was, and I ended up at a club.
Queer Doc (they/them): It's the mark. I don't even know how I got in. It's like a private club and I definitely didn't have a membership, but somehow I got in and this person sat on the end of the stage and needled her thighs and they had candles in them because it was someone's birthday, and she like lit them, and then sing Happy Birthday to the person that I was like, I don't know what I just saw but I absolutely know I want it like, 100%. I'm here for the thing, you know, fast forward, like 11 years later, and I love needle play. Absolutely topping bottoming, I'm all over at super fun, but I never done it in my thighs. And so, we did it for my 40th birthday.
00:50:00
Queer Doc (they/them): We did needles inside my thighs with candles, i I did 20 of them and then I had my stunt bottom to the rest of them because like this hurts and I don't want to do anymore. And so and I have a huge bruise, right? Because like, we just happen to cut a small blood vessel like with one of those needles, right. And we pulled it out and I got a giant hematoma and I take turmeric like every day. I take like a ton of turmeric. So when I do bleed, I bleed really well. And some people actually like that, right as clinicians. That's something to be aware of, like sometimes when we're doing scenes, like we actually do things to make bleeding like more intense because like part of the scene is to like make it bloody and so
Damien NCSF: We just did a birthday cake like that. I swear to you within the past month. One one of our boys was turned into a birthday cake I think for his 40th. So yeah you've been birthday cake with needles and…
Queer Doc (they/them): What?
Damien NCSF: candles is probably more common than you think. Yes.
Queer Doc (they/them): You guys instantly. You know, and definitely like all these things are like, there's all kinds of kings out there. Like if you can think of the thing, Like anything you can think of there is a king for it. Like Like this, this this pen, there's a kink for this pen. Someone has the kink for this pen, like, whatever it is, you know, and, and that just because you don't understand, it doesn't mean that the person in front of you like is in trouble, or is unsafe, um, you know, or shouldn't be trusted like really relying on what Susan is saying, like understanding consent. What Damien is saying, looking for those red flags, those are important things in series injuries. I like Susan's point about serious injuries, and I think they can happen in consensual kink. I have seen serious injuries happening because I don't play with edge. Like, I don't do a lot of edge play. It's just not in my personal interest like,
Queer Doc (they/them): Some people really love it. I think as a physician I've seen enough significant trauma in my training that I like, not really interested in pushing that in my kink play, and, but, definitely some people like edge play. Like, that is part of part of their kink and part of where they are and they're interested in trying things that you know they do have the skills and training for but like if something goes wrong there might be a pretty significant problem. We I think Ethical Responsible kinky, people work really hard to minimize that risk in their play as much as possible. You know, but I do think people some hard players, particularly like long-term relationships like will explore those edges. I think the important thing again is
Queer Doc (they/them): Did they talk about all of those risk beforehand? You know, did they all talk about them where they all wear of it, was it worth like that risk to them and bling, They'll think that's worth not risk to me personally. But, you know, you know, there's a lot of rope people out here in Seattle who, like, you know,
Damien NCSF: It's a lot of real people there.
Queer Doc (they/them): big world and they love a box tie, you know, and there's some really serious nerves right there and I'm like That like, you really want to put a rope over those nerves for like that long? You know.
Damien NCSF: I think with especially with with rope folks, they carry medical shares. So right they there is a safe aspect right There is a safety clause,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: a quick exit strategy even with some of the more edgy things because that's a part of doing kink ethically. Right? Being like explicit prior permission it is talking about the risks involved so you can agree and understand you know what are the potential outcomes of any activity that you're you're participating in?
Queer Doc (they/them): Thing.
Queer Doc (they/them): Right. And like, I think so I think Yeah, if you're seeing a series injury like That would be pretty rare and ethical responsible kink. Like I wouldn't say it's like 100% not gonna happen, because I think these things do have some inherent risk, but I do think it's definitely Susan's. Saying, a reason to ask more questions, a reason to really explore the situation and to get really, really nitty-gritty in that consent and like really look for those red flags. I think, you know,
Queer Doc (they/them): Also, if you're seeing serious energies, like also, like, I was an idiot when I started with kink like all that serious injuries,…
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): I had I caused myself, you know? I was like wax, but I feel like everyone starts with, like wax players, spanking, right? It's like, such a like I'm gonna do one and it's like, you know, you just grab your like, Yankee candle off your bedside. Don't do that, FYI. It's a horrible idea. It burns too hot, but I didn't know because I didn't look anything up. anyway, so sometimes we do it to ourselves and that's, you know, also something to ask your patients about and I think, you know, we haven't talked about this, I don't know if we have time, I should probably let y'all go soon. But the other thing I think about too is like the intersection of trans identity sex work and kink. So over 70% of trans people will have done sex work at some point in their life, and right? And so,
00:55:00
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): And just because someone is doing sex work, doesn't necessarily mean it's not consensual and it's not like sex work is work, it is a job. And it, and it should include like legal protections and safety from our state and our federal government, which don't get me started on that. But Sex work isn't always unconsensual,…
Susan Wright: If?
Queer Doc (they/them): but it isn't always consensual either. So really exploring someone's situation. And again, looking for all of those consents and red flags about safety and where they are, and really important,
Susan Wright: Yeah, and again, that's like giving the autonomy to the person respecting that, you know, there's a lots of different types of sex work. I mean there's a lot of people doing sex work from, you know, dancing to cam work to. I mean, there's plenty of it, that's legal. And so you shouldn't have a betroitive attitude towards somebody who is a sex worker. But yeah, you can certainly find it about consent. Make sure this is, you know, their own desires. It just with like a simple question and listen to what the person says and how they say it. Because I think that that's the most important thing is, You…
Queer Doc (they/them): If?
Susan Wright: as Damien said, the that that understanding attitude that you're not you're not waiting to sit in judgment of somebody.
Susan Wright: When they're an adult and making their own choices, you want to be able to project the, You know, I'm concerned. I just want to make sure everything's okay. If everything's okay great, you know, like Let them know up front. I just want to make sure this is consensual.
Damien NCSF: And thinking of,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: you know, different types of sex work, I don't want to leave out, you know, pro-doms or pro subs, right? Because that's Still sex work. Even though,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yeah.
Damien NCSF: it's even though maybe folks, don't consider it immediately in the drop-down, right? It is within the world of King BDSM all within sexual health,…
Queer Doc (they/them): Yep.
Damien NCSF: right? So, that's definitely something you want to. You want to know
Queer Doc (they/them): Let's get a shout out to for providers who are trying to learn any of this like doing a session with a program or a pro sub, where you don't have to hit them, you don't have to beat them. You don't have to be hit, or beaten or like, get put their shoes on or polish their letter. Like, you don't have to do any of that programs. And pro subs will do sessions, where they mentor, you where they explain, what they do, where they explain how it works. Like you have to pay them because people deserves you paid for their time, Let me very clear about that.
Susan Wright: Here.
Queer Doc (they/them): And but they are great educators and like mentors and can explain a lot about the community a lot about how things work. And so if you want to like Do a session one-on-one or if you want to have someone come in like speak to your clinical staff. You…
Damien NCSF: Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): I think that is like another a lot of programs are also professional sex education. Please. I know you know and…
Damien NCSF: Yeah.
Queer Doc (they/them): they're phenomenal teachers. And so yeah, I think that's like very valid and true. And yeah, sex work has many iterations. And I've like done sex work adjacent work in my life as well and still do occasionally. And so you know I think assuming That. Yeah, assuming anything about that is just like let's just period,…
Susan Wright: It.
Queer Doc (they/them): just don't assume anything about that. Let's just done. Oh my gosh. Is there anything else you want to share before I like start respecting your time actually and let you go to your day for our like clinicians who are listening?
Susan Wright: Oh, I would say that, you know, we do have a lot of free materials, you can order brochures and for free and put them out. I mean, that's one of the, the best ways to be friendly and affirming. We have got consent brochures, got consent for kink. Got consent for consensual nominogamy, and You know, you can either put them out, you can have them ready. And then that way you're passing on information where people can go and you know, find Ncsf find our coalition partners and then from there continue their education. So I think that that's a really handy way for providers to be able to pass the information along without having to have memorized. A lot of it and feel like, Oh, am I saying the right thing or saying at the right way? Um, you know, reach out, we've got it on our website. It's under order materials under our resources, so that would be my biggest, takeaway and join our king and polyamory aware professionals.
Queer Doc (they/them): Yes, I love it. Damien in the last thoughts.
Damien NCSF: Yeah, I guess one. Last thing is I think it's okay to tell your patients that your educating yourself. Right? But you don't have to pretend to know everything. I actually think it's better. It like one of my primary care physicians said, Hey, I am edging being more educated about trans healthcare Specifically.
01:00:00
Susan Wright: It.
Damien NCSF: They were told me that they were going to learn more. So I really appreciated that they knew that they had more to learn and that they were taking it upon themselves to go out and do so. that's, it, the thing that I would add
Queer Doc (they/them): Awesome. They should sign up for Queercme. Thank you so much for your time today, I really appreciate it. I overshared like a ton, so I appreciate you going along on that journey with me and to all of our listeners. Now, you know, even more about me and Yeah. Yeah, always happy to challenge. Like what people think a doctor should be. And right? Because I think, yeah, the more I surprise you, the more space it makes for other people with even more marginalized identities than I have, which I like, Yes, I would like to be not shocking by the time I retire. So thank you so much.
